We Hack Purple Podcast

We Hack Purple Podcast Episode 39 with Guest Haiyan Song

May 28, 2021 Tanya janca / Haiyan Song Season 1 Episode 39
We Hack Purple Podcast
We Hack Purple Podcast Episode 39 with Guest Haiyan Song
Show Notes Transcript

Host Tanya Janca learns  what it's like to be the executive Vice President at F5, with Haiyan Song! She has had a very long career in security and Tanya is looking forward to delving into Haiyan's career path, and tips she has to share! https://twitter.com/HaiyanatF5

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[Music][Music] welcome to the we hack purple podcast where each week we meet a different person who works in the information security industry and they let me ask them a thousand questions this week we have hyanne song of f5 she is the evp of security product and uh we're gonna tell you what that acronym means i assure you it is extremely impressive um this week we are sponsored by thread fix which is powered by denim group and there's so much more i want to tell you but first i want to introduce you to haiyan let's bring her out hello hello hi thank you so much for being on the show thank you for having me i've been looking forward to this moment for a couple months already oh i know i schedule so far in advance i'm really a scheduler your your session is so popular i'm just so honored to be part of this and looking forward to our conversation thank you so i was wondering if you could tell everyone your name your job title and then a little bit about yourself so my name is hyen song and i recently started at f5 in january as their new executive vice president responsible for the security business we call it the security product group and i came here from splunk where i used to run their security business almost had seven years seven great years at the previous company um and it's just been such an amazing space to work in and i'm five months in almost and super excited energized um and there's days very exhausted because we're very intense uh but working on really interesting challenging and uh amazing things around the digital experience which is all powered by applications and apis cool i was really excited when you said yes because you have a very impressive title and you do a lot of things so i was like yes she said yes um could you tell me a bit about your job so i'm really glad that because i remember when you switched jobs and i was like uh oh i hope she has enough experience at the new job but it's been months now so you know what your job is can you tell us because honestly i've never met an evp before and i don't know it sounds pretty it sounds kind of amazing thank you tanya um we're just one of the security professionals working in the industry just like you and many of your audiences here we take a different role right try to advance the technology advance or industry my role particularly that i'm super excited about as you know f5 really started in the load balancer and helping everybody getting the best experience with the internet this is years ago and over the years they got to do more and more help people deliver the applications that powers or business powers or life and in the evolution of application delivery everybody knows how important security is becoming and the fact that you're on this podcast i'm sure that's probably either part of your job or something that you're aspired to do and you want to get into the industry so securing applications and nowadays securing the apis becoming even more important so my job it's really about building the security product and the offerings and the services to help our customers who are getting into this new digital economy that everybody really sort of got to experience and enjoy in the last year and a half i would say how to secure them and try to make sure we deliver the right user experiences safely oh that's so good you should write my resume because it would be way better if i had the way that you explained that so good do you um i also love the way you said how everyone has had the chance to enjoy the digital experience over the past year and a half i'm like oh you're so good okay so your job because you're you're an executive vice president so that so a lot of times when we talk to people on this podcast they have more kind of boots on the ground types of jobs but a lot of us aspire one day to have a job like yours what is it like like a day in the life of your job is it a lot of meetings do you have to write papers do you have to brief a lot of people do you have to do presentations because some people are really afraid of doing presentations well you just listed all of them all of the things that may not be like doing them all in one day but most cases it's actually doing all of those one day for example we're in the middle of doing or you know financial planning for the next year and as part of that um you know you really spend time with your product leaders engineering leaders and sales leaders to say hey what does next year look like and you know do we have the crystal ball try to say well this is where the business is going to come from and things so that's extremely uh important to get that done for the company and and we actually don't have the crystal ball so you have to really bring a lot of information and triangulating them and make some judgment calls so that's one of the the jobs we do right and um everybody uh learned that gosh you know in order to really plan sometimes you got to uh i think amazon is the one who made this super famous like how do you work from backwards what is that you want to deliver to your customer what is the end goal and then work backwards and try to make your plans and so i think that's the other part that we do right as part of a leadership team and let's try to like get together and define what the future may hold for us and i just did a team of site uh this week where we allowed ourselves to dream a little right two years down the road what do you think we're gonna be like and in order for us to get there what is that we need to do in order to deliver that so those are part of the most i would say rewarding satisfying exciting part of the job and there's other things you have to chase down something you got to chase down where is this peel in order for me to go and get this done that may not be the most rewarding but very important and and i think there's the other piece that i do enjoy spend time on is to really in the old days having one-on-ones in person having a lunch to connect with people nowadays mostly you know over zoom and have a conversation but just connect with people and understanding what's top of mind for them what is blocking their progress what can you do to help and their days i get to do a mentoring session with some folks who are just aspiring to be a new you know architect a leader those are really just rewarding in so many ways and i always want to make sure i find time to do that it doesn't matter how crazy my schedule is oh my gosh honestly so obviously you can't tell us but it would be so amazing to be a fly on the wall during that off-site to hear all the ideas and like to and just like to watch a whole bunch of people with a lot of experience who are really smart come together and then make a multi-year plan like sometimes i get a little excited on the show i'm sorry no that's a just an amazing process and experience and and i think you know in many ways it's all because the players the contributors and it's not because one person has crystal ball in the future it's a team effort that helps define and shape the future of a business oh that's so cool so what types of personality traits or maybe aptitudes would someone need to be really good at a job like yours i mean i feel like i can already guess that you have to have a really good work ethic but but other than that like what types of things could make someone good at this um i remember seeing the question coming in i was giving some thoughts i was like well actually i always have to believe it's the team that you put together because each everyone would bring a different talent right into the work and nobody is perfect i know i'm not and so but to really have this the right leadership and do make the right decisions uh you need a team that you know who are super duper experts in certain area and who are willing to work together as a team and augment each other and debate things so we get all the right perspectives so i guess if those are important things to do is to build a team that the the qualities of the leader needs to be really value value you know the people around you and value the value of teams and have the ability to bring people together i think that'll be one thing and uh willingness to be open-minded because you don't know everything and hopefully a good communicator because you got to go communicate to your team communicate your customers communicate to your bosses and board because you know we're in a position in a role that we need to be really sharing what's important and influencing and get buy-ins from all the different stakeholders oh that's so cool you probably have really good persuasion skills like you're probably i try i try tanya you've been so modest i've seen you presenting i've seen you coming making a pitch and your persuading skills it's just built in so uh you're just being too modest here so if you're gonna set direction for a company and figure out all the steps basically that you need to actually achieve those goals i feel like you probably need technical skills or have previous technical experience in because like if you i don't know you tell me do you do you need to have technical skills to get where you are today i think my journey certainly benefited from my technical backgrounds and i started as an engineer as a researcher and my first job was at a company called informix and building a trusted relational database so you know if you ask me do you need to start that way in order to get to the role and do the job i would say no you don't have to there's many ways many paths to have a successful career but whichever direction or starting point you have i think it's super important you understand the space you be a student of life you learn learn what matters to your customer learn what's important uh you know what's the challenge what is the the most difficult thing to solve and immerse yourself uh you do need to be knowledgeable you do need to be uh credible right and you you all know in the security and industry there's something called the street cred and you can have many ways to get that and it's important to have that so that would be my advice is you don't have to be a double e or computer science major to get into the space but you do need that sort of drive to learn and to be knowledgeable to be as deep as you could get to to to to build that street cred oh that's that's such a good way of putting it too because if you're going to argue or i mean i guess try to persuade or or whatever like make a goal it's like these are the reasons why i'm choosing these goals like see this space over here right you know these needs aren't being met by a huge part of our industry and like we could help solve this problem and the problem does exist right that's a good way of putting it yeah okay so i have more questions as you probably guessed so um for everyone in the chat if you want to ask hyanna question you can you can also click the thumbs up button if you want i always press the button anyway so so do you think that there's training that someone could take to try to one day get to where you are i find that there's all sorts of training all over but actually what to do so that you can reach that end goal in your career do you have any ideas on that um that's a great question like you know in my whole career when i res sort of uh do the retrospection right what sort of are the pivotal points and what are the things that helped me i do feel like i take every opportunity even starting at informix i remember there was classes that teach you about negotiation i got negotiating to yes i still remember that and there's like classes to teach you the right pronunciation you know i came out of i grew up in china sometimes i i pronounce things little differently um so i think it's more the attitude of doesn't matter how great you are there's always opportunities to learn and if you're afford an opportunity go learn that in terms of to get to where i am um you know to have an opportunity to lead a business lead a team i would say besides the technical sort of knowledge product knowledge and the business understanding of you know the industry you're in having the right leadership and management training it's important and because those training help you to become a better leader a better manager and you know i recently just had my team go through uh training around you know how to be a leader that's a multiplier versus a diminisher and i you know there's the one thing that people say well i may have learned all the skills but sometimes i regress so it's always good to refresh you know yourself um what are the things that important to be a leader at the end of the day the leader's job is to bring a team along is to create a lot of geniuses not just being the genius right so so i think i'm always a big fan of learning my whole motto in life is you know be a student of life but to become an executive become a leader i i think be mindful of getting yourself immersed in those learnings are equally important than knowing your industry and knowing your technical skills this is this is so wise so years and years ago when i first officially became a manager so i would say like 12 years ago was the first time i officially held a management role and they had this deal in the government where i was working that you had to go and take a whole bunch of courses and you add a year and a half to complete them and i was like yes i'm gonna learn stuff this is awesome and my manager who had brought me in who was awful she was absolutely awful um yeah so she'd interviewed me for one job and i quit my job and i came and then she gave me a completely different job and i was really upset and she's like well you're awesome at it and the guy who was doing it before sucked so and the team loves you so i don't care you're doing it um and so i was yeah i was supposed to do net and then they had me doing sap whatever but the point is she said oh i'm not taking this training it's such crap i already know how to be a manager i'm awesome and i was like and she asked me if i would sign her name to the attendant sheets and i said i'm not very comfortable committing fraud for you brenda and she was like europe and then used the b word and i was like awesome see after the training and then when i quit she said well you're the best person that's ever did this job so guess what i'm gonna give you a bad reference so you can't leave and i was like yeah but i'm so awesome it doesn't matter and now i have all this extra experience on my resume and also anyone that calls you and then you say all of this awful stuff and then they call all my other references they're gonna know what's up because you don't want to lose me and so i ended up not even needing a reference and i had three drop job offers within a week because at a zillion years programming experience and i was like you'll want me to come program for you and they're like yeah okay um but anyway it's so interesting because she was awful and had been in the same like level for a really long time and was like i don't need to learn anything i already know that crap and i'd come back from every single course and tell her like oh i learned about different communication styles and she's like your softness is anyway she felt that my softness was a problem and that i should be more hard but now you who are way way more successful than that person are telling me you always want to learn you always want to improve and how i love how you said you want to brush up on things to make sure that you never it's so awesome what was that course that you said that they took it was how to be um a leader that multiplies could you explain what the violina modifies and so there was uh i this actually was introduced to me when i was at splunk uh there's a book called the multiplier and was written by this amazing lady liz wiseman when i took that course i was like wow this is so good and it teaches me to be a better leader and honestly taught me to be a better parent um so so when i came over to f5 you know i got a new team and we just had a completed acquisition like three months ago so i got an opportunity to lead this this team and so i said you know what would be more important than bring my team together and have the same language of leadership language and and have the same way of working um so i said let's introduce this let's let's bring everybody together and let's use this to give all of us a refresher on what that is and so i'm a big fan of that and especially the whole value there they said you know you can be one genius yourself or if you're a multiplier you're going to create an army of geniuses that's just you know my my um the most rewarding experience as a manager and leader is to be able to do that yes when you when you mentor someone and train them and then you see them blossom yeah and especially like i know as a manager like i want to keep the good ones but when i see them go off and like they've outgrown me do you know what i mean i'm just like yes i am 100 with you on that and oh by the way i was gonna say you made such a great decision to leave that job because right you know the most important thing is to work for someone that you really believe in and and you share the values and stand up you know for for what you basically say hey i don't believe in those values i gonna go and do something that that's more aligned so yeah yeah the next thing i i'd already worked with him before and he brought me so he had been promoted and so he brought me over with a promotion and then i worked for him for i actually worked for him until i switched into security yeah for like years and years like almost four years um but yes your boss makes your whole day for better or worse yes yes very chew okay i have a ton more questions but very briefly first i am going to thank our sponsor i want to thank threadfix because they make the most stupendous vulnerability management this side of the galaxy um i told them i wanted to say something fun and i have to say every time it's fun and also they're wonderful um i actually was in this private chat recently and someone was asking about them and before i could say something everyone's like everyone that works at denim group's awesome they're the nicest people on the planet and i was like oh that's what i was gonna say um yeah it's nice to have um it's nice to have sponsors but let's get back to the topic that we're supposed to be on which is how our audience can become evps one day so so you have a lot of work experience this is not your first job or your second job it's definitely at least your third job so what types of job experience do you think that someone should try to get if one day they hope their career could go like yours[Music] you know i my first job at informix i was there for almost 10 years i just remember this great colleague who basically said hyen you've been a rising star here i'm going to give you some advice do you want a career in the valley of course he said if you do you need to get a diverse sort of experience uh you cannot be uh just successful in one place even though any formats are done through four jobs right um so i got a taste of trying different things and doing different jobs just builds that perspective and help you continue to grow because i always say why people hire leaders and and and the vps or evps it's not because you come in with many years of experience it's actually it's because because of the years of experience and the perspective bringing you can help to make the right decisions right on where we should be investing what we should be doing how should we position what are the opportunities that that's that's lying ahead of us so the important thing in those role is making those strategic decisions for the company and building a team behind you know like those decisions and to make it happen right so it's the vision is the execution so if you think along those lines is you got to you know i'm a big fan of you got to be grounded you know there's there's no sort of uh you know floating if you're floating then you're not necessarily grounded and to to know the ground truth so i'm a big believer in that uh so coming from the ranks as i think is a great opportunity and uh take on you know something that that you're not familiar with so you can understand a totally different perspective i went from informix to a company who does application service providers type of services and i went from a system software to a totally service provider and that changed i was like oh i did not realize that you you install something you deploy something in two minutes your pager starts versus a software company six months later okay there's a bug on the release you put out right six months ago right that's before that's before all the ci cd and the new way of doing things um that whole point is you got to go and get those perspectives and so when you make decisions you actually know there's more perspectives than what you know and and you you seek out people and you develop that in intuition so recommendation is try something new if somebody offer your management and leadership role take that and i always say what's the worst case gonna happen the worst case you didn't like to be a manager but guess what after you do that you become a much better employee even though you go back to be an individual contributor so i always recommend people to take those opportunities and if you're a manager you you're giving expanded relation you know like responsibly keep pushing yourself and you always have the choice to do something different and smaller going back right so um there's literally no downside i have gone back from management down to individual contributor around four times in my career so yeah yeah it being yeah anyway whenever i do technical work i don't know how to explain it but i really love my job and i have less stress yeah but then someone's like do you want to be the boss and lead things and i'm like yes i do and then after a year or two i'm like no i don't okay okay more more questions actually um you know how a lot of people oh hi unicorn from connecticut hi kellen hi everyone in the chat people were saying hi so i thought i would say hello so you were talking about how people should try a bunch of different things i've heard a lot of people talk about diversity in tech so tech um especially uh in silicon valley which is where i believe you're located like is a lot of is like a big sea of white dudes right and so do you believe so like i'm really biased everyone who watches the show knows my bias like i believe that diversifying all the different types of people that we have in tech is important for a lot of reasons but do you believe that that would help kind of like the leadership of a company if they have more different perspectives absolutely i i think um silicon valley is interesting it's actually um in most of the places i worked in is fairly diverse um but you know in certain segments is probably what you're describing i was lucky enough in most of the the companies i end up being part of we have more diversity than probably the typical company here and f5 is one of the most diverse um executive leadership team i've ever been um so i you know check it out and if you have time uh that's one of the really rewarding experiences even though i've been here for just um five five short months um but i do believe in diversity i believe in so much that uh when i was when i was at splunk i remember i was describing to people my team and you know what background they had you know public sector and private sector and where they came came from you know canada and and then you know like all the different countries they were saying oh you know just like your team looks like a united nations um and that was really one of the things um i would say well we were able to build a very strong business over there and i sort of attribute a lot of that to that team and to the diversity of the team to how we learn from each other help complete each other and so not only i believe in it i feel like i have a proof point for it oh that's awesome oh i love it okay it is now time for the super difficult cheese question because i know people in the chat will not allow me to not ask the cheese question so if you have listened to this podcast before the reason why this question was called so the question is does your job pay well in your opinion but i was explaining when i first said it you know i'm not asking how much money you make because that would be weird but does it pay well and so when i was a software developer and i finally was working like full time as a dev i remember going to the grocery store and i was looking at two different types of cheese and i thought you know oh this one looks pretty good but also this one sounds pretty tasty i really really like cheese and um and then i realized i make so much money now as a dab because i'm a full-time dev now like i can buy both and it was like this moment where i'm like i've made it i know that that might sound like not a lot to you but for me it was like this huge moment of like i'm not poor i'm not poor i can go to the grocery store and not have to count every single penny i'm like oh my gosh this is so amazing for me it felt so good and um and i and i grew up quite poor and i was just like i've made it it was this magical moment and so now it's called the cheese question and so i suspect the answer is yes but does being an evp of product security does that pay well as a job for how how hard you work and how much experience you've had to put in to get to where you are today is this good it's very good and anything it's it's um you know like i think that's part of the value system that we all have and this job it's definitely not a nine to five and and and uh you know i i believe in the the whole us system you know on compensation and the risk and reward and and how hard you work what's responsibility you have and and the pay you know should be somehow is a function of all of those uh so i would say you know yes um and um i think definitely you know i can get both cheese yes you know what like on the show we've been asking that question and some people are like yeah so i'm a vegan now if that's the question because like especially when i started the podcast so in august it makes one year but i was a startup founder and it was like oh yeah there's not a lot of cheese in my house right now but now a year and oh how long has we have we've been doing this now like a year and three months i'm able to buy lots of cheese again life is good i love that question that's such a great one too i'm sure each of us would have or like you know i can buy my two cheese kind of moments right throughout our career and i so you know i came to this country and the first job i had was doing um filing like you know the invoices in the student sort of office of of a university is like five dollars an hour and now i think about i was like wow okay you know we were able to do that at the time and then happiness is not a function of how much money you make that i can certainly attest to oh that's awesome okay so more questions that the people listening to this podcast may want to know about are there many opportunities for those in your type of job or field i think you know like in cyber security for sure right uh you know this tanya more than i do because there's so many people coming to you and and getting training and doing all the things um so for sure um and in and but as you sort of grow in your career and and climbing the the ladder um i would say in cyber security there's still a lot of opportunities to be in those leadership roles uh but sometimes it does get harder to find that perfect role because it's the space it's the opportunity it's the people you get to work with and it's the vcs behind the company or you know uh there's a lot of opportunities but sometimes finding that one that's the the perfect fit or very good fit it's not like you know you can just pick right there's it takes a lot of effort and and there's some luck that's associated to it uh but you know i what i've learned is in this role you do get a lot of calls and there's definitely a lot of opportunities um and so if you're like interested aspire to to do this and you shouldn't be like wow you know would i have job security i think you will have plenty of opportunities oh that's awesome would you say that um networking is something that you would want to do if you're trying to look for like your perfect spot i think networking and to be connected with people was was just people in the industry whether it's you know job searching or not is a good thing to do because nobody has all the information and even just to help with your job networking it's a good thing to do and and if you're looking for opportunities it's even more important okay awesome okay so now i have a two-parter question so it's sort of a really easy question but sort of a really hard question so what do you like the best and what do you like the least about your job and you probably shouldn't say it's this person but other than that you're like this guy he's the first i'm just kidding would you like the best and what do you like the least i think like you know i'm here for five months um maybe when i sort of look back at the five months what is the thing i'm super proud of uh is how quickly uh we were able to get the team together and and building that rapport and to have a team that supports each other and and willing to go to bed for each other because this person is off and i'm gonna try to fill in and and this thing is happening and you know we're gonna go i i think that's always you know it all comes down to the people and the relationships that that i loved uh that's the best part right and you know all the way from my colleagues my my teammates at the elt member and to our ceo i think that's that's really sort of that culture um it's it's just amazing um and that's the best part and the least part um gosh i i think it's been so intense and sometimes i was like i need a little more time to step back and think and and and i i think hopefully you know as the new team all settle in the business sort of gets gets sort of chartered out the map and and we will be able to spend a little more time sort of strategizing thinking and and and reflecting um that's probably the one that i'm hoping that i'll get more time to do i feel like there must be a huge learning curve when you come in at such an incredibly senior position and then also setting strategy so you have to learn as much as you possibly can and then apply it yeah that must be a lot yeah on top of that um luckily um or you know however you want to describe it on my third day we announced an acquisition of a new company called volterra and and that's part of the security product group so you can imagine the rest of uh what happened uh so but it's it's really you know speaking of learning um that's part of the learning i was like we're really sort of building out a new platform uh to we call it edge 2.0 is how do we take all the applications and the current cloud and really take that all the way to the edge because i think that's how the future gonna uh really hold for application delivery and security it's not happening just in the cloud or in a data center is gonna be totally happening all over the place we need to be where the the user is um so i have the volterra business and and that's gonna be part of our security offering and also going to be really the the platform that will build more and more sas services on for the company super exciting but a lot of work and i also manage the shape business which is totally amazing um how you know you're probably familiar with that you know like they are the ones who literally created the concept of credential you know stuffing as like a threat and uh we were really they are protecting most of the the the largest banks and institutions and and and just having that mission on your team and then and seeing all the geniuses behind that technology it's just amazing i'm actually reading my audiobook right now so i'm doing the readings for it like literally all day i did it and i covered credential stuffing today perfect oh my gosh that's so awesome that's so amazing too like to create a defense against such i remember when i first heard about it i was like that's so weird but that's such genius and oh that's so so crappy so that's so amazing like to have made a tool to protect people against this and in the book of course i'm recommending that people not get any specific vendors tool yeah that they but that oh it's a very important thing to uh to be uh watching out for and defending against because it at the end of the day it's your customers data that's at risk so yeah exactly and if your customers have a bad experience on your platform even if it's because they've been doing password reuse which they theoretically should not do but like they're regular consumers they shouldn't have to memorize a bunch of security things we should absolutely yeah yeah i'm with you okay so tanya off topic with the credentials stefan sorry okay okay so let's say someone's watching this high-end and they are thinking okay so that sounds amazing and one day i want to try to get to where she is what advice would you give them like an actionable step that they they could try to move towards trying one day to get to your level i don't know how else to say it right like how to get to where you are um i think first of all to find that passion that you really enjoy you know being challenged every day because to to be in this role you are challenged every day whether it's eternal external business or or people or organization uh so you have to really have that mental uh readiness and toughness and then to do that and uh just actionable it's just like you know be be like figure out how to take that in and be strong right um i think the second part as we talked about is really continue to build your leadership skills continue to apply your knowledge um making good decisions and continue to figure out as new information come in how do i make better decisions nobody is a genius but the ones who are making better decisions is the ones who's always willing to learn always willing to take in different perspectives and iterate and get better and better i think that will be my recommendation is developing that approach and mindset and and go for it you go very far oh that's so good that's such good advice okay so we have come to the end of the questions and now if someone wants to know more about you if they want to follow you how can they do that they're like i'm in how do i how do i learn more about her what are their options yes so i am i think over the years i did sort of speak in various different opportunities and i got a chance you know to speak for splunk and others um and and that's still out there i think that would be able to give you some of the perspectives am i building out my social media sort of you know approaches at f5 just started and that's why i don't even have a particular handle for f5 specifically but i do have a linkedin and uh you know over there i share you know some readings and learnings and and i certainly welcome if that's a place you want to connect and and follow and i promise i'll work with tanya to get my social media site much stronger she's such an expert and i still remember her advice and i'm gonna you know that's one of my new year resolutions is to to put that into action oh my gosh seriously i i have learned a lot since i accidentally made a handle and now i have purple hair it's weird it's funny if you if you just go with things before you know it it's just yeah they just they just grow oh absolutely and someone is saying twitter haiyan please so i guess there's a request that you make a twitter account sometimes we will i will they've spoken spoken yes thank you so much for being on the show you have shared a lot of really good insights and a lot of good career advice for literally anyone not even someone that necessarily wants to get all the way up to where you are someday thank you so much for being on the show thank you tanya i had so much fun and you've been amazing in so many ways thank you for having me thank you and with that we will see you all next week the we hack purple podcast every week has an amazing guest and this week was no different hayan was amazing i can't wait until she gets a twitter account so i can follow her and you better believe it i'm going to add it to the webpage when we get it thank you everyone to tune who tuned in um we want you to know that this episode was sponsored by thread fix powered by denim group we have so many more things in store for you in the coming weeks we also will be we will be releasing our new secure coding course in june come hell or high water so stay tuned for that until then see you next time on the wehack purple podcast